Welcome to the Demetriou Discussion archive! If you are new to this discussion, I recommend you click on the blog posts to the right and start with the "Welcome!" entry.

All entries are posted in chronological order from latest to oldest, so starting at the top will be confusing if you haven't been following along.

Enjoy!

Tuesday, October 23, 2007

#6 - On "Assault Weapons" and Control

Guns and gun control are interlinked. For a very long time, the notion of gun control as a form of restricting individuals didn't exist. It didn't have to. The idea that an individual person could carry a weapon, any weapon, to defend themselves was seen as a natural condition.

I don't cling to gun control. I fight it. I see it for what it is: a stepping stone to the curtailment of freedom of choice among individuals by those who think they know what's best for me better than I do. That notion of "for the common good" by and from the Government I will resist and shed light on in any form. It isn't about guns.

It just happens that I have stake because I am a gun owner. Not that it matters since I was against gun control before I bought my first one. Ownership merely sealed the deal on my opposition to gun control. I have a personal stake in it because I have a dog in every fight. Any type of gun control whether it be against handguns, hunting (aka sniper) rifles, "assault weapons" or small, fast smallbore "critter killers" are going to affect me.

Let us discuss some of your points. I quote the following from you:
"The fact is, I agree with those in favour of controls in principle and the arguments you provide which focus on what gun does what and what this means and so on are by the by. I do not think that it is right to have a system in place which allows someone to bowl into a gun shop, fill in some forms and walk out with firearms. It goes against every shred of common sense ever blessed upon the brains of mankind."
What common sense do you refer to? What makes firearms so special that they are deserving of special controls? A gun no more loads and shoots itself than a sword does to chop off heads. They are both inanimate objects. So is a butcher knife. Or a box cutter. Remember what men with box cutters did 6 years ago?

You gloss over the process of purchasing a firearm in this country. Yes, compared to Britain, our system looks to be insane. But it is quite thorough. That "background check" is an anal probe every time you fill out the paperwork. And that paperwork survives for 20 years in the hands of the dealer and subject to inspection by the Government at any time. If the dealer goes out of business, those records go back to the Government. Some believe, as I do, that these records have been used to create an illegal gun registry (see 18 USC 926(a)). There are numerous disqualifiers to firearms ownership. Essentially to own one, you have be an upstanding, law-abiding citizen.

What we do lack for the most part is a requirement to demonstrate "need". Some areas have banned certain types of guns within their borders (Chicago and Washington DC come to mind here) but provided you're law-abiding, you can buy it, do the paperwork, pass the background check and take your purchase home (following all State and Federal laws for transport, of course).

So I reiterate: What is lacking in common sense here? Or is it merely the idea a person can choose to own firearm and beyond making sure the person isn't a known criminal, the Government has no authority to interfere in that choice?

About gun control in Britain: You discuss the farmer having their balls busted to renew a certificate for a shotgun. Do you feel this is appropriate? Or is it simply one more level of control the Government has taken on for itself and another piece of your freedom either ceded to them or taken by legislative force from you. A farmer is a law-abiding citizen. Why should he have to jump through hoops in order to justify himself to the Government? Why should any free man have to do so? He isn't a threat to society. If you want to discuss philosophy, I'd like to start there.

On the topic of the gun controllers, my previous post explained they had the impetus for the ban and got it through. With regard to the media, what trends are you referring to? If anything, the media in this country is very much anti-gun and happily prints anything the gun control groups put forth. Media isn't objective here and in this area, they are operating with their own biases. Stories of people defending themselves with their own arms are virtually never told in the mainstream media and if they are, they are often with a caveat of some quote from a police chief admonishing citizen's for "taking the law into their own hands".

Google around and dig in a bit. You shouldn't have to dig far since you've already read such media in your original post and I can show you just how wrong they are. A culture of half-truths, outright lies and lying by omission with regards to guns is pervasive throughout the media here.

With regard to gun control, you need to understand that both sides depend on funds they acquire from public donations in order to function. If the public support for or against guns isn't strong enough for people to open their checkbooks, these messages don't get out. In this area, the gun control groups have been in retreat for a very long time because they've lied to the public so often and time has proven them wrong that people are no longer as willing to write them checks. Many people simply don't believe them anymore.

For reference, I refer you to this excellent post by Joe Huffman on the subject of why they are in retreat.

In other words, cry wolf long enough and no one will believe you. In this case, substitute the words "there will be blood in the streets" for "wolf" and the analogy fits perfectly.

You ask my why I prefer an "assault weapon" over a handgun. Three reasons: ease of use, accuracy and impact energy.

Yes, rifles are easier to aim. That is the first and simplest reason. That also goes to ease of use since a rifle is easier to support than a pistol. Accuracy comes as a natural consequence of easier aiming as well as having a longer barrel.

Impact energy is the down-and-dirty reason. My primary defense weapon is a .45 caliber pistol. I use it because my fiancee won't let me keep a rifle next to the bed but if I could, I would. Or a shotgun for the same reason. Limiting this to "assault weapons", the rifle hits with an impact energy 3 times that of my pistol (353ft/lbs vs. 1099ft/lbs). That's it. By transferring more energy into my assailant, I am more likely to stop them. And because it is a rifle, I am going to have, as you say, an easier time of aim (especially under stress) and I am less likely to miss.

I want to quote you for the next responses.
"My argument would be, if an assailant is after you with a gun, a) how much time do you need to aim an assault weapon? In close quarters, do you really need maximum accuracy? b) If your man has the drop on you, as he's taken the advantage of surprise and has you in his sights, you can fuckin' forget about using your "equaliser". Sorry pal, the goal has already been scored. Ball at the back of the net, Paul Robinson crying into his gloves. Game over."
In close quarters, you better believe I want maximum accuracy. In close quarters, second chances are going to be few and far between so I better not miss those first shots.

On the subject of time and someone having the drop on you, I can tell you have never studied the subject. That's not a criticism; merely a fact. I have. Most importantly in a practical sense. I have undergone practical, live fire training where it was demonstrated to me as the person with the drop that I could be surprised, have a distance of 15 feet closed to point-blank range and end with two shots in my chest before I had a chance to pull the trigger. Having the drop is not enough. Surprise works both ways and your scenario is too simple.

How much time do I need to aim any weapon? Less than a second to be honest. And if the person who has the drop on me isn't expecting me to draw in return, I might surprise him more than he surprised me. Isn't it worth it to try if you have the means? You don't know what this armed individual's intentions towards you are.

People say to cooperate, to give them what they want. I find that idea repugnant for the simple fact you are placing your life into the hands of a person whose motives are already suspect (he is threatening you with a gun, after all). You are gambling heavily on the idea that there is some "better nature" in this person to appeal to by cooperating.

Do you think giving such a man what he wants is valid if all he wants is to rape you?

What if he is only interested in taking your life?

You can't read minds. I, for one, will not gamble on the benevolence of a criminal. Fighting back with any means at your disposal, not just guns, is always a more successful strategy for survival and avoiding harm. Guns make it easier and more effective to resist. They do "equalize" even if the criminal has their equalizer out first.

Unfortunately since Britain has neutered the individual idea of armed self-defense, you'd have to come here to take a class and receive a practical demonstration. Should you ever wind up on this side of the pond, I can make such arrangements for you free of charge. It will be quite an eye-opener.
"And you know what? He was probably armed in the first place because a) He thought you might have one, b) He could get one easily, c)Why take a risk? Everyone is armed, the cops are armed, got to keep up with the others.
You again equate criminal ownership with legal ownership. Why does a criminal arm himself? Simple: To gain a means of intimidating their victims.

Yes, criminals do think people might have guns but he didn't arm himself as a counter to mine. Criminals in this country actively avoid places where such people might be for the very reason they might be armed. Criminals are first and foremost creatures of opportunity and like any predatory animal, have a well-developed sense of self-preservation. No criminal will knowingly place themselves in a area (unless they are truly insane or suicidal) where they know their victims could be armed.

This knowledge comes from the mouths of the criminals themselves interviewed in prisons. They purposely avoid wanting to encounter armed victims. Hence why our level of "hot burglary" is very low in this country. Criminals tangling with armed citizens is very much a risk. A risk they prefer to avoid.

Why do you think you never see robberies at places like shooting ranges, gun shops or gun shows? Places with lots of guns a criminal would certainly want. But with lots and lots of armed citizens present. One of the safest places on this planet from a standpoint of crime is the NRA parking lot. You never hear about a mugging there.
"Control is about control: This betrays a fundamental massive lack of trust in authority doesn't it? How come my government isn't persecuting its unarmed people then? What are the odds of your elected politicians destroying you, simply because you were not allowed to stuff cabinet in your lounge full of guns? I mean, really, have you examined the liklihood of this outcome? It's a bit far fetched isn't it? And people have come at ME for Hollywood examples! Quelle Ironie."
In this, you are correct. I do distrust government. The natural state of Government is to acquire more and more power for itself. Have you ever known a Government to repeal something or scale itself back? If there is a Government that has done so throughout history, I want to see it. Government always grows.

The odds of my politicians destroying me depend precisely on whether or not my cabinet is stuffed with guns. It is very hard to impose their will on me by force when I have the means to resist by the same means. Every single totalitarian government and dictator throughout history without exception has only managed to acquire and hold their power by first disarming their subjects. Every. Single. One.

As long as private citizens in this country have guns, the Government will not dare act through direct force. They cannot. They don't have enough men or weapons of their own. They are outnumbered 10 to 1. Any attempt to disarm the populace here "for our better good" would be seen as a bad sign and one that would be resisted. You cannot impose true tyranny against an armed citizenry.

Indirect tyranny is a different story but even then, true tyranny is impossible.

You can abuse the citizenry. You can restrict them legislatively. You can tax them into submission. You can ignore them at the polls. You can sweep aside judicial rulings in favor of their "rights" and substitute your own interpretation. But you can't do all of them at the same time to achieve total control because to do so would be to invite revolution.

As the saying goes: "Soap box, ballot box, jury box, ammo box. Use in that order."

Without arms, your freedom, your choices, your very life depend on the benevolence of the Government in place at the time. Without a means for the people to resist, what is to stop them from turning tyrannical? Not in the sense of sending in the jack-booted thugs to bang down your door and haul you off to re-education camps but in the sense they just restrict, regulate and legislate it all away one small piece at at a time.

What happens when you the people form up in a mob and demand it back? How will you achieve anything if the Government says "No"? Look how effective citizen protests are here to that end.

What If the Government refuses to stand for re-election and declares a "temporary" state of emergency that becomes permanent? Even if every shred of common sense and Constitutional precedent is violated, how could they be stopped?

Arms is the only way.

Does this betray a huge lack of faith in Government on my part? Absolutely. I don't believe Government acts for the betterment of the governed. It acts for itself. Betterment is a temporary condition. It is your acquiesence bought and paid for with your own money. To give you the sense you are getting something of value in your life when in the end, all you've got to show for it are shackles. Invisible and unseen but shackles nonetheless.

Given the history of your Government, how likely do you think their benevolence will continue if you can even call it that? How long before the bureaucracy and indifference across everything the Government touches consumes you?

Cameras that prevent nothing. Police watching the drama unfolding on those screens rather than doing something about it? People walking away from crime out of fear of prosecution which results in indifference to their fellow man. Government passing more and more regulations in an attempt to maintain order which only tightens the grip on the law-abiding in the name of "public safety" which in the end only results in more crime.

How long before such a Government in doing such acts takes police powers upon itself to quell the disorder? And when it does, will it be out of the motives of "betterment for society"? They may use those terms but it will be anything but betterment for you. Rather betterment and/or protection of themselves.

At what point do you call it tyranny? And when you do, you're already lost. It's too late then.

Look at Britain's own history for evidence of this. Gun control really started in your country out of the fear of labor strikes and revolt by the working classes during the First World War. The Government had to appease them because they feared them. The mob had arms and the means to achieve their ends if the Government pressed the matter. After the panic abated, however, the controls began. It took 80 years but they achieved the ends they hoped for. A citizenry stripped of the power to resist in three generations.

Now you are at their mercy. I admire your faith for believing it with be tender and just mercy. It is a faith I do not share. I cannot.

Sorry, this is a long-winded answer to a simple question. The short answer is: Because I do not trust the Government to be benign in its nature over time, I bear arms as a future hedge against it going tyrannical in any form. Are we there yet here? No. Could we get there? Yes.

The difference is the USA is going to have to do what the UK has done. Unlike you, we won't do so as quietly. "For the children" is a tired excuse of the gun controller and it doesn't play here. That's political reality.

As long as we have the ammo box, the government is restricted in what they can do to abuse the soap box, ballot box and jury box.

Does this answer your questions? If so, I ask the following:
  1. What is "common sense" about a disarmed populace? Why do you trust the government (military and police) with guns but not your fellow citizens? See my argument regarding government benevolence on this.
  2. Why do you place special restrictions on firearms but not other tools that can be used for violence? As I understand it, knife crime has soared in the UK. Criminals will use whatever is handy as a means of gaining power over their victims. Is knife control and licensing the next step and when knives are legislated away, what then? Registering sticks and stones?
  3. All the laws in the world won't stop crime especially if the laws aren't enforced. So why punish the law abiding majority for the acts of the criminal minority? Is this not tyranny carried to its logical conclusion? A Government acting out of the best motives often produces the worst in unintended results. What then?
This a lot of absorb and I don't know if it is what you are looking for. Believe it or not, this really isn't about guns but about rights. Guns are merely the mechanism by which this starts. Likewise, I have plenty of ammo as well.

Feel free to fire away. I look forward to your response.

Wednesday, October 17, 2007

#5 - John's Response to "On Assault Weapons"

Well, what can I say. You certainly know your shit about guns in a way I did not think possible about any topic. I would firstly like to ask you why guns and gun control are twin topics that grip you so firmly?

I certainly can't match your knowledge on guns or indeed the whole political scene. As I say, I'm British and gun control etc is a ZERO issue over here. There is nil percent public appetite for gun ownership and gun control is a fait accomplie as there is almost 100% gun control. There is a 5 year mandatory sentence for anyone, even on first offence, convicted of possession of an illegal firearm. Which is, essentially, any firearm. Even farmers have their balls busted by the local authorities every time they want to get a re-issue for their special gun license for a 16 bore shotgun. And they need them to shoot foxes etc.

Anyway, I digress. I want to fire back at you a few points. My argument tends towards the more rights and philosophy angle as well as the common sense and practical. I hope you can see into my viewpoint on the matter, or should I say, viewfinder? See, you can tell I'm a hopeless Limey with poor gun knowledge.

1 - Media Term:

You say Assault Weapon is a media term and you provide much evidence to show that a) they are not much different to normal guns, and b) they were modifed to stick two fingers up at the temp ban.

Ok. Let's dig at the real argument here. I think it fair to say that the gun control legislators wanted to provide some impetus and momentum to the short lived and brief public mood againt gun prolifeation. I dare say they wanted to get something down in writing, a bill, a temp ban, anything they could to try and counter some of the trends appearing in the media.

I believe the point of the movement was indeed symbolic and to gain attention and momentum. It was a political act you no doubt despise but I am sure you can see the logic. In politics, one pounces on any opportunity one can find, and why not? Especially when the tide is against you. You already mentioned guns are here and here to stay. The Constitution can't get turned over, so the odds are in your favour.

The fact is, I agree with those in favour of controls in principle and the arguments you provide which focus on what gun does what and what this means and so on are by the by. I do not think that it is right to have a system in place which allows someone to bowl into a gun shop, fill in some forms and walk out with firearms. It goes against every shred of common sense ever blessed upon the brains of mankind.

2) Assault Weapon your 'preferred' weapon of choice:

Why? Because they are easier to aim and you need less practise? Tell me why this is a weapon of choice over a handgun, if all the difference is comes down to 'features not functionality'?

My argument would be, if an assailant is after you with a gun, a) how much time do you need to aim an assault weapon? In close quarters, do you really need maximum accuracy? b) If your man has the drop on you, as he's taken the advantage of surprise and has you in his sights, you can fuckin' forget about using your "equaliser". Sorry pal, the goal has already been scored. Ball at the back of the net, Paul Robinson crying into his gloves. Game over.

And you know what? He was probably armed in the first place because a) He thought you might have one, b) He could get one easily, c)Why take a risk? Everyone is armed, the cops are armed, got to keep up with the others.

3) Control is about control: This betrays a fundamental massive lack of trust in authority doesn't it? How come my government isn't persecuting its unarmed people then? What are the odds of your elected politicians destroying you, simply because you were not allowed to stuff cabinet in your lounge full of guns? I mean, really, have you examined the liklihood of this outcome? It's a bit far fetched isn't it? And people have come at ME for Hollywood examples! Quelle Ironie.

I have plenty more to say, but I thought I'd limit it to largely THREE comeback points to get going. Don't want to use all my AMMO up in my first post. HO HO HO. Aren't I funny.

Take care Matt.

regards

John

Tuesday, October 16, 2007

#4 - Part 1: On "Assault Weapons"

Let us start with some answers to your questions.

The term "assault weapon" is a gun control term. It really started in 1988 with Josh Sugarmann, executive director of the Violence Policy Center. Here is his famous quote on the subject:
Assault weapons - just like armor-piercing bullets, machine guns, and plastic firearms - are a new topic. The weapons' menacing looks, coupled with the public's confusion over fully automatic machine guns versus semi-automatic assault weapons—anything that looks like a machine gun is assumed to be a machine gun—can only increase the chance of public support for restrictions on these weapons. In addition, few people can envision a practical use for these weapons.
This one statement reveals how the push for the 1994 ban gained momentum. It was pure and blatant dishonesty on the part of the gun control movement to capitalize on public misperceptions as to the nature of these types of rifles.

Interestingly, Sugarmann saw the outline of the law that ultimately was passed and the issues with such a law. This is revealed in the following statement from the same report:
Although the opportunity to restrict assault weapons exists, a question remains for the handgun restriction movement: How? Defining an assault weapon - in legal terms - is not easy. It's not merely a matter of going after guns that are "black and wicked looking." Although those involved in the debate know the weapons being discussed, it's extremely difficult to develop a legal definition that restricts the availability of assault weapons without affecting legitimate semi-automatic guns. Most likely, any definition would focus on magazine capacity, weapon configuration, muzzle velocity, the initial purpose for which the weapon (or its full-auto progenitor) was developed, convertibility, and possible sporting applications. Any law based on this definition would, however, need to have a clause to excuse legitimate semi-automatic weapons that would inadvertently fall under it. And although legislation could be passed that would ban specific weapons, the world's arms manufacturers are expert at producing weapons that follow the letter, but not the intent, of the law. This often results in products that are virtually identical to the restricted weapon, yet different enough to remain on the market.
For the original text, visit the VPC here.

The most revealing part of his statement is this:
Defining an assault weapon- in legal terms- is not easy. It's not merely a matter of going after guns that are "black and wicked looking." Although those involved in the debate know the weapons being discussed, it's extremely difficult to develop a legal definition that restricts the availability of assault weapons without affecting legitimate semi-automatic guns.
He recognized that defining an "assault weapon" was a problem since the term was not used in the common nomenclature of firearms. The proper term is "assault rifle", itself a military term. Until the late 1980s with the increasing prevalence of military-styled rifles in civilian hands did they come to the attention of groups like the VPC.

The attention placed on these rifles at the time was for two reasons: public confusion and numbers.

Public confusion we've covered.

By numbers, I mean the relative percentage of this style of rifle in civilian hands as compared to other types. Not so many people at the time owned "assault weapons". In other words, the small numbers of people affected by such legislation despite their hue and cry would not be able to deter the attempt. They were nice, juicy, niche targets. Kind of like a weak herd animal that is steered away from the pack and taken down while the majority runs away.

He also saw what the manufacturers would do in such an event of a restriction being passed based on configuration, features, etc: that the makers would obey the law to the letter and offer products functionally identical to the banned item but different enough in appearance to obey the law.

Which is exactly what happened.

Why do I quote a gun controller here? To provide you with the foundation to answer your question of why the law was passed in the first place. The answer is in the first quote and it does revolve around symbolism. Because the average citizen is unaware of the technical differences between the look-alike and the real full-auto and heavily regulated firearm, Sugarmann felt, rightly at the time, that his group and others like it could take advantage of this confusion.

The ban was a test bed law to see how the public would react to such restrictions as the first step in a broader plan. The ultimate goal, especially in the VPC's own statements, was the banning of handguns. They are the only group honest enough to come out and say their ultimate goal was the removal of handguns from the hands of civilians. The Assault Weapon Ban (AWB) was seen as a social experiment to see how far the gun control movement could go in laying the groundwork for this ultimate outcome.

The law also passed in a time when the gun control movement was in its ascendancy. The period from about 1985 to 1996 was the "golden era" of the gun control movement. Civilian machine guns had been cut out of the market in 1986, gun crime was on the rise in several areas, there were no background checks then and people were looking for answers. The gun control took advantage of this public desire for action and was certainly helped along by a variety of incidents. The attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan was one such event and brought the other major gun control group, Handgun Control, Inc., which later became the Brady Campaign Against Gun Violence (BC), into being.

The movement reached its peak in the early-and-mid 1990s with the passage of the Brady Background Check bill which introduced background checks and waiting periods on gun sales and culminated with the 1994 Assault Weapon Ban. With the passage of the 1994 AWB, the gun control movement felt they were on a roll and could only continue the momentum.

Journalists agreed too as evidenced by the following:
"It might be 50 years before the United States gets to where Britain is today. Passing a law like the assault weapon ban is a symbolic--purely symbolic--move in that direction. Its only real justification is not to reduce crime but to desensitize the public to the regulation of weapons in preparation for their ultimate confiscation."

--Charles Krauthammer, Washington Post, April 5, 1996
And:
That`s why Bill Clinton told the Cleveland Plain Dealer: "The fight for the assault weapons ban cost 20 members their seats in Congress."

That`s why in March 1996, 239 members of the House of Representatives voted across party lines to repeal the Clinton gun ban.

The debate is not really about so-called "assault weapons." It`s about banning guns. It`s about gun prohibitionists searching for the easiest target of opportunity. They`re going after guns that are scary-looking to many folks, claiming, without a shred of credible evidence, that these guns are the "weapons of choice" of criminals. It`s a lie. A day after Bill Clinton signed his gun-banning crime bill into law, a Washington Post editorial admitted: "Assault weapons play a part in only a small percentage of crime. The provision is mainly symbolic; its virtue will be if it turns out to be, as hoped, a stepping stone to broader gun control."
(From NRA-ILA and Chris Knox.)

Which answers quite succinctly why the law was passed.

Unfortunately for them, the American people had other ideas.

The outcome of the passage of the 1994 AWB delivered Congress into the hands of the Republicans in 1996 for the first time in 40 years as stated by former President Bill Clinton himself. If you look at timelines, 1994 was the high point for gun control in the United States. As far as they were concerned, they were on a roll. They didn't expect what happened in 1996 and by then, they were in retreat and just didn't realize it. While the AWB was focus, they were already losing ground with the states moving towards "shall issue" concealed carry and giving citizens the ability to carry concealed weapons on their person. Most of this liberalization of citizen carry started in the early 1990s and rolled right on through into the 21st century. Today, only 20% of the nation doesn't permit public citizen carry of firearms provided they pass a background check and obtain training.

You state that the reason gun control is in retreat is because of a Republican Congress and House. This is incorrect. President Bush himself stated that he would sign a renewed Assault Weapon Ban into law if Congress had presented him with such a bill. They never did because they learned from 1996. They weren't about to make the same mistake the previous Democratic Congress had. Nor were their constituents going to let them and the ban was allowed to go out with a whimper and not even a bang since.

Furthermore, by the time the ban was due to sunset in 2004, questions were being asked as to its effectiveness. Mainly by the gun control groups to grab onto any sliver of justification they could parlay into support. It wasn't there.

The best statement on the issue comes from the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) in their report on the subject.

Their conclusion: In summary, the Task Force found insufficient evidence to determine the effectiveness of any of the firearms laws reviewed for preventing violence.

In other words: The ban didn't accomplish any of the goals that were stated it was intended to accomplish.

For more excellent researched coverage: I refer you here.

I hope this answers your question on "...would ask then: What was the purpose of the temp ban and why, if it was pointless, was it instituted?".

Now, to answer a few of your other points on the issue.

I find it amusing that many who deride various types of firearms such as "assault weapons" descend into phallic references and inneundo about men needing to compensate. It's childish and doesn't win arguments. Don Kates covers this topic far better than I. I will simply ignore any such references as they detract from the discussion.

Let us briefly touch on "need".

Why is it with guns that people have to justify their "need" to own one when such criteria are not applied to any other legal consumer object?

You state "assault weapons" are high-powered weapons. No, they are not. Ask a shooter if the M-16 is high-powered and they will laugh at the comment. Seriously. The common term of derision thrown at rifles like the M-16 and AR-15 (the civilian semi-auto clone) is "poodle shooter".

If by "high powered", you mean the ability to fire many shots in a row without reloading, then perhaps you could argue that an "assault weapon" is high-powered. But that same label applies to many firearms including handguns. That term is bandied about by people who don't know much about the arms in question. If you can provide me with a idea of what you consider "high-powered", I'll be happy to reply. I just don't think you'll like the answer. I will provide a hint: "Assault weapons" are not high powered. If you would prefer a visual example, I can provide one.

As to using an "unwieldy assault weapon" to defend one's home. Why not? Dimensionally, an "assault weapon" is the same length as a shotgun or any other carbine length rifle. People have no problems working with a shotgun in a self-defense scenario.

Need is determined by circumstances, cost and desire. Trust me, given my choice in the matter, I prefer the "assault weapon".

Because pistols are a weapon of last resort, not first choice.

But pistols are used more often because they are small, easier to store and easier to shoot. The problem is they are not easy to master. Unlike rifle skills, pistol skills are perishable. A user requires regular practice or their ability suffers. Speaking from personal experience, I know this. It is very easy to go from being a good shot to a bad shot with a pistol in the space of a couple months. Pistol shooting is easy to teach but difficult to learn.

If you wish to discuss the nature of self-defense and need under such a scenario, we can.

But in the grand scheme, throwing "need" out there is a cover for "choice". Specifically, to be used to restrict or eliminate personal choice in such matters. Ultimately, that is the purpose of gun control. It isn't about guns; it's about control. The ability of the Government to control your choices in such matters.

I have restricted this to answer only a small part of your questions. My next post will cover more. It's a complex topic.

Next: #5 - John's Response to "On Assault Weapons"

Monday, October 15, 2007

#3 - John's Response to My Initial Comments

This is John's response to my initial comments.

I'll try and make my response and clear and concise as possible. I like to use numbered points to help aid this. Allow me to begin.

1) You are right, I am British and my opinion has precious little bearing on US domestic policy vis a vis gun control laws. Though as you correctly note, I am free to criticise and I shall exercise my right to say what I think about the matter.

2) My point is not that they failed to consider changes to society per se. I think it amazingly unfortunate for your country that a special amendment was set aside to make it rightful and legal for every day Joe Bloggs's to bear arms. I understand that to make a revision of an amendment needs the support of the Executive AND two thirds of congress to agree. There's almost fuck all chance of that happening on guns, which is why I indicated the SYMBOLIC significance of providing some form of momentum and public awareness and support for gun control. It's worth hoping that some day, the 'right to bear arms' is eroded and made more realistic and amenable to a normal, civilised society. Here's hoping.

I can understand why the Constitution was made hard to change...but quite why it was deemed necessary to make it a 'right to bear arms' is beyond me. Surely, if things got that bad and a government became all dictatorial and oppressive or King George invaded again, then the people would rise up and get hold of loads of guns anyway. The whole thing would be a fait accomplie, so the law was pointless and has ended up backfiring massively.

3) My article was dated 2004 and I knew it was dated 2004 when I researched and used it for my article. It was completely relevant and important for the article as it reflected all the necessary facts that transpired, contemporaneously, from the non-extension to the assault weapon ban. i.e. the age of the article is a moot point and irrelevant.

4) My hollywood references did not in fact betray a lack of knowledge or understanding...they were to embellish a point via humour. My point was, arm a normal citizen with a high power weapon, and the likelohood is - they won't know how to use it properly and will probably end up killing unintended targets...or putting alot of holes into random nearby vehicles. I'm sure, if you read the section again, you'd see what I was getting at.

Media Term? Assault weapon? Look mate, I couldn't give a fuck about what guns do what, it really doesn't inflate my dick that much. All I know is, an Assault Weapon is a bit better and a bit more "kick ass" as you Americans might say, than a handgun. End of story. If you live in a house and you hear someone coming through the door downstairs, do you really need an unwieldy assault rifle to go and do your business? No. So why the need to make them legal? Ridiculous. It's clearly an antiquated law than allows very strange people to get together and hang their towels off eachother's penises while they pour monstrous verbal vitriol over non-existent 'Straw Man' liberals whp apparently are crawling all over America in a bid to institute socialism and the confiscation of guns. Get. Over. It.

5) You make an interesting point here, as you have provided evidence to show that the law was quite ineffective and served to prohibit little if nothing. I would ask then: What was the purpose of the temp ban and why, if it was pointless, was it instituted? If you could be balanced in an answer, that would be handy. I'm not really up for listening to a tirade against pussy bitch sell out Liberals and democrats etc.

6) This comes down to your persepctive that ownership is a 'right'. I would argue that it was once considered a right, and now it is so far removed from being a right in reality, the law needs to change.

What are you referring to about 'doing the same thing over and over'?

7) You apply the right wing American mindset to a British context, which is utterly laughable. This tiny country has a population of around 62 million (if you count recent illegal and unaccounted for immigration.)

Any liberalisation of gun laws here would bring anarchy and murder. Currently, gun crime is restricted to certain nasty areas of: London, Manchester, Nottingham, West Midlands. And in those areas, 75% or thereabouts of gun crime is caused by Yardies and other black drugs gangs. They tend to kill eachother and the guns they possess are indeed illegal. They are countered by extremely highly trained firearms police officers, who are monitored in every action they take. You cannot make the link between crime and gun ownership here.

Are we utterly dependent on the government for safety? Well, if you have to put it like that, in the most part, yes. The police do their job, it's not up to individuals to form vigilante gangs. What would that solve?

In this country, as Mr Boatang rightly said, you can use reasonable force to defend home and person. Which essentially means that unless you use violence out of REVENGE, then the law will recognise your violent actions as legal self defence. So you have about as much knowledge of the UK law in this regard, as I do about the technical infinite knowledge about all the different types of black steel that happens to fire volleys of little bullet type things in a straight line.

The only people who believe here that the criminal is protected and the people left to suffer and die is the British reactionary Far Right newspaper, The Daily Mail. Which is guaranteed to make house prices rise and to cause cancer and heart attacks. I recommend you DON'T read it.

You say the anti gun lobby is in retreat. I would argue yes, but not for the reasons you ascribe. That'll be down to the fact that for most of the last decade, there has been both a Rep Executive and a Rep Congress. Not really conducive towards the betterment of civilised conduct in society in my opinion.

Over to you, Matt.

Next: #4 - Part 1: On "Assault Weapons"

#2 - Laying the Groundwork

The following comments were in response to my initial post regard John's article. This back-and-forth lays the groundwork for what follows. My posts are in blue, John's are in green and they are in chronological order. I have removed other poster's comments to focus on the "negotiation" process. You can click on the previous link to the original post to read all the comments in context.

I have transcribed the comments exactly as posted with only one edit, noted below.

#1:

Matt

I didn't think your post was at all the works of an extremist gun nut loon. I thought it was very well argued, informative and offered a fresh perspective on the issue.

I fully intend to argue my point in response to your views set out on your site and on mine.

However, this shall have to wait until over the weekend as pressing matters await.

Thanks for commenting on the topic and do expect a substantive response soon.

My kind regards

John

#2:

Thanks. I look forward to it. If you would like to discuss specific topics as a matter of back-and-forth debate, we can set something up that would be suitable to both.

I should warn you that folks like me are very well versed in topics such as this. We fight the "anti-gun lobby" here constantly and we are the reason they are hurting.

This type of conversation can get very broad. Most gun rights talks quickly head towards what constitutes a "right" and "reasonable restrictions" of same once you get out of the technical aspects of guns themselves and into philosophy and ideals. I can refer you to some excellent resources if you would like some background information.

If you would like to comment on narrow issues within a limited scope, that's fine too. I am always willing to educate. Agreement with my views is not a requirement but I do expect facts to be acknowledged when presently (most notably in the areas of established US law and technical aspects of firearms themselves).

Disagreement is wonderful and not a bad thing. I don't expect you to agree with me. Perhaps there can be "reasoned discourse" on the subject. We shall see.

Thanks for stopping by!

#3:

Marvellous stuff armed canadian.

I should like to see your sources and read what you have to say in due course.

My article on guns continues to attract vocal criticism, though none as reasoned and educated and courteous as your own view. Which is why I will tend to argue back in the appropriate style.

I will address your points tomorrow (which is Sunday) because such well argued and intelligent points will need my attention. Other people can be dealt with in a few seconds as I touch type my rebuttals in the usual brutal fashion.

Take care Armed Canadian and I look forward to engaging in verbal battle on the morrow.

my regards

John

#4:

Bolt,

Don't worry, I can turn it on and off at will. I'm much worse in person than in words because the real passion and annoyance comes through when face-to-face.

I promise I will behave.

John,

Thanks for stopping by again. I'll be happy to read-and-rebut anything you come up with. I'm surprised you consider me well-argued and intelligent. Most just write me off as another NRA apologist and gun nut death-dealer.

I assume you've read some of my blog which is another reason why I'm surprised you're still here. In the words of another blogger I read frequently, "I do this for me, not you.". As a result, read or don't read, agree or disagree, hate or whine, it doesn't bother me. I do this mainly as catharsis for my soul so I don't let day-to-day frustration with these issues eat me up. It does often come off over-the-top and I will never apologize for that. Just letting you know that so you know how I am.

The number of times I have descended into ad-hominem attacks I can count on the fingers of one hand. Call me stupid, misinformed, misguided, etc and I won't mind. I will try not to do the same in return. As Bolt says, keep it civil, heated, passionate and away from calling each other morons or baby killers and I think we'll be fine.

Take your time, there's no rush.

Until next time.

#5:

Matt, I've posted my reply on my site. I think in the name of decency and gentlemanly conduct, I shall the the honourable thing and post said response here on your site also.

I look forward to your comments, my good man.

regards

John...

(Editor's Note: I've removed the rest of his comment since it is his specific response to my comments and deserved its own post).

#6:

Thank you, sir. Would you prefer point-by-point discussion or in a broader context with your points as a whole taken into a account?

Point by point is easier for readers to follow but I can do an essay response just as easily.

I'm digging in. I will post my reply here as well as on your site if you wish.

#7:

Hello Armed Canadian,

I reckon the best way forward is essay style now. Point by point is all good in moderation, but these methods of discussion tend to lead to warped debates where each party concentrates on smaller parts of the whole sum, if you see what I mean.

Get rambling, dear chap and I shall do my best to pick my way through your musings.

Good evening

John

#8:

I reckon the best way forward is essay style now. Point by point is all good in moderation, but these methods of discussion tend to lead to warped debates where each party concentrates on smaller parts of the whole sum, if you see what I mean.

Get rambling, dear chap and I shall do my best to pick my way through your musings.

Hello John,

I'm going to set up a separate blog for these posts so anyone reading can follow along without being interrupted or have trouble finding stuff. It will provide a useful archive should this continue beyond a few posts (which I hope it will).

I am not expecting to change your mind. If I do, then I will be shocked because I lack that power of influence. If we can both walk away saying "You make some good points, let me think about it." to each other, I will consider that a success on both sides.

If you would like author privileges on the alternate blog for your responses, that is not a problem.

I'm working on my reply. Expect something this evening or tomorrow.

#9:

Matt

Nice idea on the separate blog for discussion. You go ahead with it and I'll contribute as and when appropriate - no need for me to have any author access.

I'll check in with your site to see evidence of any update.

regards

John

With this back-and-forth done, I set up the blog you are now reading.

Next: #3 - John's Response to My Initial Comments

#1 - My Comments to "A Ban on Assault Weapons in the US must go ahead"

This is the comment I posted on the site in response to the article. It is the comment only. My original post on the subject is here.

I don’t even know where to begin.

First off, you’re British. You don’t live here. If you want to criticize US gun laws, feel free as you have. But ultimately your opinion has no bearing since you don’t live here.

Two, good for you that you’ve read the Constitution and the Founding Fathers. You understand the historical context but then choose to ignore it because they couldn’t have predicted the course of modern society. They didn’t have to. They provided a framework for future generations to operate in and had faith they would do so in a manner faithful to their intentions. That’s why we have the US Constitution.

Third, you’re expressing an opinion based on a 3 year old article! Why not investigate the issue with more recent information.

Four, as pointed out to you, you don’t have any knowledge about what you are talking about. Movie references are not reality! It is very hard and very expensive to own a machine gun here. You’ve fallen victim to invented media terms such as “assault weapon” that have no real definition in fact.

Five, the so-called “ban” that expired in 2004 and you are calling for renewal on banned NOTHING. It banned FEATURES, not functionality. If a gun had a specific combination of 2 or more out of 5 listed features, it was considered an “assault weapon” and couldn’t be sold after 1994. All the manufacturers did were to remove those banned features. The rifles sold as “assault weapons” during the ban were functionally identical to those sold prior to the “ban” but cosmetically different. That’s it. Not one gun was confiscated or turned in, registered or restricted in that time.

And the ban was an abject failure except to harass citizens, raise awareness of gun rights in this country and did absolutely nothing to reduce crime. The CDC agrees when they studied issue.

Six, why the call for “symbolic” action you know won’t have any effect? The 1994 “ban” was considered symbolic under the same logic. You don’t pass laws that restrict rights for the purposes of symbolism!

One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. It is the hallmark of ideology over reality.

Finally, why do you think the idea of legal gun ownership to be a problem? You like Britain now that legal gun ownership has been crushed (to use your term)? You like the skyrocketing incidence of violence of all types? You like that fact you are utterly dependent on the Government for your safety and well-being and if you attempt to defend yourself against an attacker, YOU will be charged with assault? You think that is correct? You think that is a reasonable state to live in?

Here, we still have the notion of self-defense of one’s person and home. That criminals are not elevated to higher level of protection than their victims. The UK wasn’t like that once. 80 years ago and up to the 50s, the UK was similar to the USA with regard to rights towards guns and self-defense. Only by ignoring centuries of common law and by legislative fiat in contradiction of past precedent did the Government take power to enforce its wishes and disarm the populace. And look where it has gotten you.

The anti-gun lobby is in retreat in this country because for the most part, the American citizen has woken up to the fact that the Government and police can’t (and have no duty) to protect them. They are ultimately responsible for their own safety. Most people here believe (correctly) that gun ownership is an individual right guaranteed to them by the US Constitution. It will not be taken easily here despite that anti-gun lobby’s best efforts. And it won’t be the NRA fighting them. It will be people like me who will not be left helpless by the Government who legally has no duty to protect me.

For what it is worth. I could discuss this at length but I think I’ve said enough. Feel free to contact me if you would actually like to learn something and discuss the state of affairs in this country as they truly exist and not what you believe them to be.

Good day.

Next: #2 - Laying the Groundwork

Welcome!

I have set up this blog as an archive so that John Demetriou, a fellow who published this opinion regard the lapse of the US 1994 Assault Weapon Ban and myself can discuss/debate each other with regard to gun laws, ownership, etc. This started when I posted a comment to his site and then published it here for others to see. My comment attracted him to my site and we agreed to go back-and-forth on this issue.

This format will allow us to point and counterpoint without cluttering each others comment sections or blogs. I will post notice of anything I post here to my main blog.

Should this continue beyond a couple of rounds, which I hope it will, this will serve as a useful archive and hopefully a useful and enjoyable read for anyone who finds it.

Enjoy!

Next: #1 - My Comments to "A Ban on Assault Weapons in the US must go forward"
 
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